Defining Design
Casual and fun interviews about different avenues of design you may or may not know and the designers behind them. If you have a love for design, a curiosity for design, or a love for hearing the stories behind creative ventures, this is a podcast for you.
Defining Design
Ep 14 - Continuous Curiosity
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In episode 14 I talk to fellow Architect Mike Zumpano. Mike takes us through how he started his path to architecture from the early influence of his dad, but took it and made it his own. Architecture for Mike encompasses so much potential to learn new things with each project. He talks about Architecture as an avenue to not only be curious but to find ways to pair your interests and hobbies outside of the day to day and bring it to your career. A great example of this is when he was able to bring in his love for drones and drone photography and merge this technology into to a beneficial part of his job. Listen as he describes all the ins and outs of architecture that continuously evolve but never stop being exciting.
Welcome to Defining Design Podcast. You are listening to episode 14, and I have Mike and Zumpano with me today. Mike is a registered architect at BHDP architecture firm here in Ohio. Mike is also an Ohio State alumni like me, although we never really crossed paths in school. We were more crossing paths outside of school with our mutual friends, including my husband. But Mike, thank you for being on the podcast. I'd like to start us off asking you kind of a simple question. Why did you choose architecture?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and thanks again for having me. So thanks and thanks for leading off with a simple question.
SPEAKER_01So I actually That's not deep at all.
unknownNo.
SPEAKER_01Tell me about your life. So I actually got into architecture because I did not know what I wanted to do, and it runs in my family. I was born with it. So my dad's dad, um, he was never a formally trained architect, but he designed and built um uh apartment buildings, um, like two to three um residential uh unit buildings. And then my dad um took over that business and he actually got a degree in architecture. Um he's never he was never formally licensed, but he designs and builds uh custom homes. It's actually always been a goal of his. Um and so he he's kind of looking into it as well. Uh and I've helped train him. But essentially, um I yeah, I it came around I was a senior in high school and I didn't really know, but I I knew I had to pick something and I knew I was gonna go to college. And uh I liked Ohio State, and uh so I just said okay, I'll I'll do uh I'll do what my dad is doing. And um, so here I am now it's 16 years later, and you never stopped. I never stopped, but it it uh worked out. Um I think immediately when I entered school, I um was just kind of open to all the opportunities that the degree gave me, and I I liked kind of where it was going and and really just stuck with it. I know that the architecture degree is definitely a very challenging one. So um there are a lot of people I knew freshman year that that left early on.
SPEAKER_03Oh, same. Yeah, but I mean they kind of want you to not say want you to do that, but they do want that kind of process that you're gonna figure it out whether you have the brain that way or not.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think most of them now are probably making way more money and you know We don't talk about that part. Yes. You can edit that out. Um but uh yeah, no, I I I think um the the school actually it probably did what it was supposed to do and helped me know even more that it was a great career path for me and it suited my my interests.
SPEAKER_03Well, since you kind of went in, I guess, with a little bit of an open mind, obviously you were in Knowlton, but there were other degrees available in Knowlton. Was there any sway to maybe doing city planning or landscape, or did you just start one route and and and essentially end in the same because you loved architecture?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so kind of kind of both. Um I did love, again, with Ohio State, the fact that they offered so many classes and the ability to uh pursue other interests with kind of the elective things that could fill up the bucket with those extra hours. Um, I actually got a or I think I got a yeah, a minor in city planning uh as part of my as part of my major. Uh so it it was kind of a combo of it, it was convenience, it was interesting, and it also candidly wasn't super hard either. I think it was only like four or five classes.
SPEAKER_03You're like, I could put those in, no problem.
SPEAKER_01Um but I remember there being some really interesting classes. Like there, we took one on um like just a whole class on underground cities, and uh, you know, you would you would like study stuff like that. So um, yeah, definitely an interest in some of those other things, but ultimately I think I knew that the the final career path for me was was kind of where I ended up now, and thankfully, you know, without having to learn the hard way of jumping around.
SPEAKER_03Did you when you would come home and talk about what you were learning in school to your dad or your grandpa, was there any um I don't know, uh, familiarity between what you saw in your early life to what you were actually learning, or were there's a little bit of a discord there?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I I definitely think there's a familiarity for those of us who have gone through design school that um it it seems to have still have been very similar for the previous generations, or at least in talking with with my dad, um the the sort of continuing theme of you know intense intense nights, um heavy workload, uh but um overall good experience. Um my dad had a had a different experience than me because he commuted to school. Um, so he he didn't really live on campus like I did. So it was a little bit of a different thing. Um, but kind of the the similar um to put it politely, you know, the the views of academia that kind of clash with the professional practice views that that's kind of what I was getting at.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. But yes, I I think there's there's people who were born to be academics, and there's people to be born professional practice, and you know, we all converge at one time and then we go our separate ways.
SPEAKER_03So we were all starting at the same foundation. That's uh that's another thing. Oh, yeah, we were all we definitely take a very different path.
SPEAKER_01But that is one of the things uh that's another thing I love about the profession is how many different paths you can you can take with it, especially with the degree.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, 100%. I think that's a big reason why design is a very overarching um word that can be kind of overused but also underused or underutilized in a sense, because I do th I do see us as a design degree. Whether or not you're an architect or you become one, or maybe you just go to school for architecture or into your design, so on and so on, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're gonna do that exact thing. Yeah, but or what you think in your mind that you're gonna do. Um but yeah, that's hopefully across the board what everybody feels when they go into a design major.
SPEAKER_01I completely agree. And I think one of the biggest eye-opening things um when graduating school, that was a really positive experience for me, was how much um my career emphasizes just general problem solving that I think really fits the word design. And that's not something that you're really taught in school. I know you know academia really focuses on the aesthetics and just purely conceptual design, kind of the the stereotypical image that everybody has of an architect with their with their sketch paper and the T square and and stuff like that. But um to me, that part of the profession um has really not interested me as much where I've I've really enjoyed kind of just experiencing really any kind of problem solving in the design process that we that we do. And then depending on the size of the job, I am either the one um concepting something or I'm I'm passing it off to somebody who who can do that way better than me.
SPEAKER_03Sure. We all have our niche thing.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_03So how'd when you did graduate then? Because you went four two, you didn't have any gap year.
SPEAKER_01No, I went straight through. Um Okay. I think I think it was it was a good experience. Um, don't don't necessarily regret it, uh, because it I I was in the school mode and just to continue through um made sense. It worked out for me. The one thing that I will say has been interesting living in Cincinnati um is that I know I think while I love Ohio State, it's been interesting to see because I interviewed a lot of um UC grads, and their program has as if you're familiar with it, they have like a co-op program. So a lot of the people that graduate they'll have like a good year or two of experience rotating around. And Ohio State never never did that formally. You kind of had to find your own um find your own thing. So that's one of the things where like I think I could have been more experienced when I graduated, but in the end, I I still learned what I need to learn on the job, just a little bit slower than those who kind of had that between work experience or between college experience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I do think that there's very few I could be saying this wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's very few universities that do a co-op anymore, where that used to kind of be not necessarily a co-op, but learn by doing or learn by experience. Like if you go back, I mean really far back in following the traditions of your father, which ironically you're doing, but I know, yeah. Um but in that kind of trade mentality, I think that um the co-ops give you that where it's not it's not a requirement anymore. So it's not to say that Ohio State did it wrong or my undergrad ball state, but that's the same thing. You could kind of on you to figure that out if you want experience. But I went to grad school with people that had no experience at all.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think um Ohio State too, yeah, the people who didn't even have architecture experience with grad school, right? Because we had people that we graduated with who eventually got the I think you had to have a three-year master's degree if you came from an outside um profession degree. But but yeah, it was interesting and kind of kind of working with them and talking with them and be like, how did you guys uh get into this?
SPEAKER_03Uh yeah, what what made you want to do this more?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_03Um so once you did graduate, does did your job search land you at where you are now, or did you had to figure out or interview different places?
SPEAKER_01I um yeah, so that's kind of an interesting one too. So during grad school um at OSU, we had the setup where um I was a teaching assistant, and the teaching assistant position got you a scholarship of a certain amount to cover your tuition, but that scholarship was covered by um an architectural firm. So for every teach you were every teaching assistant OC was sponsored by um an architecture firm. And there were a few times a year where you would meet up with your sponsor, um, and you'd just kind of network and have dinner and really just connect with them. And so my sponsor, just again by chance, is kind of how they pair these, but mine was um GBBN, which is a decent-sized firm in Cincinnati. Um, and it's actually kind of our our closest competitor in Cincinnati. And um, I managed to intern for them during the summer of 2015, I think. So when I graduated, um I always kind of wanted to return to them. I think for a handful of reasons, that type of firm appealed to me. So it was a larger size firm, um, somewhere between, I don't know what they have now, but I think at the time between 150-200 people.
SPEAKER_03Um I always wanted to work at a large firm like that.
SPEAKER_01I even, when I was younger, even wanted to work for um a bigger firm like Gensler, uh, just because of the range of projects and the opportunities. You know, I don't like um staying in one place for long. So the idea of working on a project, you know, in Europe or something like that was always just kind of an appeal. Um, yeah, but ultimately uh pursuing kind of later a medium-sized firm uh that kind of allowed some of those opportunities, but a small enough firm that you you still know everybody, um, you can kind of make an impact uh and move up the ladder fairly quickly appealed to me. So I ultimately applied to GBBN um when I graduated or close to graduating um to line something up, but I also applied to BHTP, which was the similar-size uh firm also in Cincinnati, because I kind of fell in love with the city when living down here for three months, and um ultimately boiled down to GBBN did not hire me, and BHTP accepted an offer.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that kind of forces your hand, but that's all good.
SPEAKER_01It did, but um, I wasn't heartbroken about it at all. Um, and you can see I've I've been there for I'll I'll hit 10 years this summer. Um really have no early congratulations. Thanks.
unknownYeah, it goes too quick.
SPEAKER_01Uh, but really have no no regrets or um hard feelings about being rejected from the original firm I wanted. It's also funny because um, you know, I again have no no hard feelings against them, but we being on the side where I compete with them on some of the same markets, it's been kind of an interesting experience because I've seen it from that end.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. You kind of get a little bit of uh best of both worlds, but also still your come your comrades, you're still gonna be able to do it. Yeah, you're like friendly competition. Yeah, yeah. Like I don't know how best to explain that. It's not like I'm trying to beat you.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_03But at the same time, we do have to go out for it.
SPEAKER_01And like any firm both both have pros and cons, and you know, any any positive or negative thing about my firm or another firm, it's just always like, you know, if if if you're experiencing a problem, a lot of times it's kind of a universal issue or um that you see.
SPEAKER_03Yes, that's fair. Um so you I gave a little mini introduction, but I actually don't know like what is your like reintroduce yourself in a way. What is your title? What's something that you kind of specialize in? Because I don't actually know what your day-to-day looks like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, so my formal title at BHCP is senior architect. Um my role on the day-to-day, I wear the hybrid role of a project architect and project manager. Um, it's funny because if you ask that question to, and it's probably the same for every firm, literally everybody at the firm would have a different answer, um, which is one thing I again also love about our profession. Um, but my day-to-day role, I'm serving both as a PA on a lot of small jobs. Um, it's been kind of my specialty, and one thing that I like to do um is is just kind of manage just a lot of small things and and quick hitting. Um, I've worked on long, large jobs in the past. And for me, I'm always needing like different the filler. Because you you know, again, like my personality where I like to like move around and do different things and um like long, slow projects don't suit me very well. And I think my role in the firm, I get kind of lucky too, because a lot of people like I probably touched like nine different projects today. So when I fill out my timesheet, I'm building half an hour here, half an hour there, half an hour here, and it just goes down the full day. And to me, that's like awesome. But a lot of people would look at that and they would be like, This is the most chaotic thing ever. I could never do that.
SPEAKER_03That's very true. I get like five lines on my timesheets. I'm like, man, I did so much today.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, right, exactly. Um, and yeah, sometimes I'll be like, Wow, I did nothing on a lot of things, or that's fair. Um, but yeah, so that that is something that kind of keeps me interested because also, you know, like you're solving different problems all the time on these little jobs. Um as a PA and PM, I uh on a lot of these little jobs, I've had the opportunity to build a relationship with um pretty much two primary clients. So I've had the opportunity to kind of step into more of a client-facing position as well. Um, and that's been fun. It's it's not really like my formal career path to be anything like a client leader or someone like that. Uh, but it's been fun to um be trusted by the clients and you know, kind of be the one they call for proposals or when when they need uh things, you know, or they say pick up the phone and have me solve a problem. So that that excites me. Um as compared to like somebody who's out actively doing business development. That's not how I like to do things, but I'm always kind of proud of my career path where I've definitely been able to do business development by just delivering good work. And that kind of keeps me kind of keeps me excited and committed to the clients and the projects as well. Um, so that's a lot of my day-to-day. Some of the other uh specialties I have at the firm is I've had I've been lucky to have the experience um with just being able to pursue some of my outside interests and bring them into the firm. So I am a big uh a big fan of flying drones just because I love um photography.
SPEAKER_03And I bought a I was hoping you were gonna get into this.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, right, because we follow each other and we know all the photos. I know all the photos. So I bought a drone during the pandemic because who didn't find a new hobby during the pandemic?
SPEAKER_03Um correct.
SPEAKER_01And I uh I thought, okay, this it's a lot of money, but it's it's gonna help me kind of pursue my hobby and I love photos and great. Um, but then I kind of thought about taking that one step further and basically how can I do one thing that I really enjoy and like how can I get paid to do it as well. I didn't want to set up a drone business or anything like that, but basically just like work that into these capabilities because um really just combined with my interest in photography, and you know, I wear a bunch of hats, and I was like, oh man, I can I can help the marketing team get them some photos, and um, you know, for anybody that drone photography, it's it's super helpful thing, um, tracking project progress and and stuff like that. So there's just a bunch of different project uses. So I uh, you know, made some calls to our marketing team and our leadership, and I was like, I think I think we should buy a buy a drone. I think it'd be kind of fun, you know. And like here's all the here's all the use case of only for like a company standpoint. That's not a big yeah, yeah, no, no problem. And um, so they paid for me to get licensed as a commercial drone operator, which sounds way more intense than it is. It's really not it's like an online test.
SPEAKER_03Um that sounds epic.
SPEAKER_01I feel super cool carrying around an ID, but it's fun now. Um it's allowed to get the folks. Um we still like I I've never tried to replace like formal photography for marketing or anything like that, but basically it brings me out of my day-to-day esque life, um, and I get to see kind of other projects. So then I uh a few years ago took that to even another level and um thought, oh, okay, well, we do a lot of survey work, um, and we we've never like found a good way to survey big sites. We always have to hire you know a civil engineer to do that. And also, that's another thing. I I never want to replace a civil engineer, but as part of our design process, it's super helpful to have our eyes on these sites um sooner than later, because what engineer can deliver anything quick? So that was another thing that I looked into, um, gathered a lot of data, built um some investment proposals, and ultimately pitched it to leadership. Um, and we invested in a software called uh drone deploy, which will allow us to do uh drone mapping of sites and buildings. It also allows us to do a lot of 360 captures on a ground standpoint. It's basically marketed mostly towards construction companies as they're tracking their sites on a daily basis, exactly. Um, but ultimately seeing that kind of construction tool and knowing that it would be pretty applicable to our design process and an opportunity to give us a leg up um, you know, when we're doing proposals or or design process. Um, you know, again, like I mentioned, the engineer, I know we had an exact project where. We needed a concept design over, I don't know, I'm I'm throwing out numbers, but two weeks. And the civil survey couldn't be done for three weeks. So that doesn't math. Um, so I was able to go out there and scan the site. And basically, like that afternoon, we had a map of the site that our concept team could do, and they can export that into SketchUp and Revit and stuff like that. Um, so it's it's super helpful for them, and then it's super rewarding for me when I when I see people using that as value, and then the selfish end is just I'm having a great time doing it. Taking photos on the drone. Exactly. Um, so that's another thing that's been kind of cool. Um, but it's allowed me the opportunity again just to see different sites, uh, to get out of my day-to-day desk job and to can just continue kind of questioning if we're doing things the best way we can. Um, I've been lucky and and props to the BHDP's leadership has always kind of believed in the things that I brought to the table, and they've given me the money and the opportunities to do it. Um, so it's been awesome just kind of being able to pursue my interests, and if I find something that can be helpful for the for the firm, they're they're usually on board. Um, so yeah, that's that's kind of a long-winded, but we we have uh an internal team called Emerging Technology, and we set aside some overhead funds to um to invest in research and development of tools. And so I kind of take the lead on that with um one other coworker who who we we were kind of side by side doing that. Um it's fun because then it also allows us to go to like fun conferences. We'll go to drone conferences and we'll go to the autodesk one um every year, which is really great. Uh you see some really cool stuff and you meet a lot of like-minded people, and so it's it's just kind of like built itself up um from all from my pandemic hobby.
SPEAKER_03So hey, sometimes they turn out, they're right. They they span out.
SPEAKER_01Exactly, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Well, that's it's incredibly interesting because I guess this kind of goes down a little bit of a different topic, but the merging of technology and architecture, or or really technology and design, but you're utilizing something that is a technology of the 21st century um that can give you greater understanding of a site.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03For for dumbing that down into like one sentence.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But um it's just it's interesting to me because here's I guess it's the hard question, or maybe it's an easy question for you. That can be very intimidating to a lot of people in design world to even partner the words technology and architecture. Yeah. Um, I guess you've already said that that's you know, this is the exciting part for you, but is there something that is inherently challenging trying to merge those two things? Or do you ever get like a you get stuck with something because it can't you can't progress one or the other to help?
SPEAKER_01Um absolutely. Uh and that I it's not for everyone, but that is one of the fun parts, I think, as part of the chaos. So we frequently, as part of testing out the new tools, we will run into things that really don't I mean, most of the things you you trust out aren't ones you're gonna pursue further or invest in because it doesn't enable your design process or doesn't improve what you're trying to do. And the key to that is just making sure you um you catch that early on instead of diving down kind of a deep, deep path and you're wasting a bunch of time, and then your deadlines are building up on the side too, because you're just spending too much time um making sure the technology can fit your design process, but not modifying your design process to fit the technology, because you're never going to be successful if you if you do that. Now, that comes also with some nuance because if we never modified our design process to fit technology, we'd still be drawing by hand, right? So, like there's some give and take.
SPEAKER_03Yep. I think I mean I think that's where the old guard, new guard, and it happens at every turn. I mean, there this isn't anything new. This happened ever over and over and over in every legacy of architecture. But there is kind of this extra because technology, and I'm using that as a very broad term. You're talking drone, you're talking um just survey points, you're talking a lot of I mean, even just using Google Earth, like that that is alone a big technology. Um, but then you go all the way into actual design AI and things that can start really inherently trying to have computer generated design. Um, that goes down a very big rabbit hole, but it's it's an unknown world. So what you're talking about or what you're describing and what you use at your job is to better the actual um whether it be the timeline or better the actual understanding so that your design is is in fact the correct one.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Um and and also it's just been an enormous uh communication tool um in that sense where we can easily going back to like the the site scans, we can easily fly around a site in a meeting in something more accurate and more detailed than Google Earth. Um and and plus, like, you know, I I can fly around a Revit model uh in a meeting, but it's just not as easy to understand for those that don't um that aren't looking in a in a something like that every day. So being able to see something like real world imagery is one of it it's super rewarding when um you kind of see that aha moment on your client's side when they understand, oh, I can see why they made this decision. Um, it makes sense given like we can all understand what's going on. So yeah.
SPEAKER_03I was gonna ask, do you do projects that aren't just flatland Ohio so that you can do fun site surveys?
SPEAKER_01Yes. Uh well, this project is in Ohio, but if you're um uh Cincinnati topography, you know, like compared to Columbus, it's much better. It's a way different experience. Uh so we did um one of my favorite projects we did was a it's a theater up in the Mount Adams district, which is kind of on the top of a hill that kind of overlooks the city. Uh so there's it's a really pretty site. Depending on where you're at on the site, you can get really nice views of downtown. But um we were working with a site that put a theater on this pretty intense hill, and um that was my first and only theater design I've worked on, and I had the the challenge and opportunity to build the initial existing conditions Revit model. Um and I had to build it from like scanned PDF drawings, so I didn't really have much CAD to work with, and there were like 40 different levels because there's all sorts of stuff going on, different um you've got trapdoors and all this crazy stuff, and then you throw that on like a really challenging site that's on a hill. Um, yeah, so part of that was a really fun project opportunity. The project started in 2017 and it ended in oh maybe 2022, 23 or so. Um and it was cool because I got to work on it with kind of all phases of my career. And I I started off with just like they're like, oh yeah, give this kid the Revit task. He doesn't build at a high rate, you know, he can spend all the time he needs to do it. He can spend money, he can spend all the time he needs to do it, but then like being able like years later to test out some of the technology stuff that I've worked with, the firm, and um, and do that all on one project, it's really, really fun to to do that all under under one. So it's it's like such a big capsule of my career where I've tested out everything I do in one spot. So that's that's fun just because it's what it was a challenging site and a challenging project moved, uh smooshed together. But we do do sites. Um, yeah, we're not just doing flat flatland uh Columbus.
SPEAKER_03I was hoping not, but I was like, man, that's I feel like that's very lackluster for a drone.
SPEAKER_01We have we send our Columbus office people to all the Columbus flat sites.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Appreciate it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Not that I'm your Columbus office, but uh I am the Columbus site here. I am the representative of Columbus. Um, what other projects do you work on or do you find interesting for you?
SPEAKER_01So um some of the other projects I work on. Um, it's funny because when I said earlier that I don't like doing long projects, I'm totally fine doing it if it gives me an opportunity to learn new things. And um also if it doesn't take up my entire uh workload. So like it was a long project that took maybe two days a week for two to three years. Um and and that I'm okay with because again, um so so that was an example uh of one where it's for it's a public building, so it's I can say it's for Cincinnati children's and um it's kind of cool because it's right off 71. So when you approach Cincinnati, you can see it from the highway. So every time I drive home from Columbus, for example, I I see it and I'm like, oh yeah, that's that's my building. Um that's one of those like classic architect moments, you know, where you see a sense of pride in something you worked on. Um but that was a um a large 42,000 square feet um combination of a clinic, a um bio lab, and overnight sleep studies, uh, where they're testing uh vaccines on people. Um so that it was a fun opportunity to kind of learn a bunch of things. You know, as designers, we always need to rapidly learn the processes of what our clients are doing. And I'm on our um, they call it a discovery science, but for a lot of firms that translates to like science and tech, so labs um and kind of complex spaces. And to have to work on these projects, it can be very challenging to get up to uh get up to speed with what's going on inside some of these buildings. Um and so that that was kind of a fun experience working with the lab group. And then I also kind of wear some hats on our healthcare team working with Cincinnati Children's being kind of one of my large clients. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That's very cool. I uh that's a space in a realm that I'm uh very unfamiliar with.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_03Um, and uh I actually just not to shamelessly plug my own podcast here, but I did interview I know, right? I did interview um Kathy, who is an interior designer, but she works specifically for furniture solutions within a healthcare system. So I I literally titled her as, you know, furniture solutions for a complex base, exactly what you said, because you don't realize the ins and outs of a the hospital, b how nurses, you know, need to function, doctors, ORs, ERs, all that stuff, but then you also invite the patient into the entire, you know, equation, if you will, and user experience is more than just the people that are working there, it's the people that are coming somewhere that they rarely have been or don't want to be, and so on and so forth. So you're that's a very empathetic design that I don't think a whole lot of people understand.
SPEAKER_01You're absolutely right, and I won't claim to understand that either, be yet, because um healthcare is actually an emerging market for us, and um we primarily have done a lot of um the research spaces within uh the healthcare environment because that's what our firm has more expertise on. This building was a fun opportunity because it was one of the first patient-facing experiences that our firm has done and is part of part of our journey at getting more into that market, um, along with some of the subject matter experts. Fortunately, they they don't rely on me to just kind of one person have to like pretend I'm the healthcare designer.
SPEAKER_03Design a lab, yeah. That'd be a little scary.
SPEAKER_01Same with lab planning. I know I've had plenty of opportunities to go that direction in my career just because there's a there's a need for it. Um, but that's one of the things I've never wanted to do uh is become a subject matter expert in like lab planning or healthcare planning because I like kind of project management and general project architecture. Again, just my interest being I'm not really market loyal. Um, I just will I I'm open for anything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Like I just want to see new things and exactly new roles here. That's fair. So that's you you need that person too.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So that's that's great. Um, so that that was like another one of my projects I've done, and that's local. I I do a lot of work uh for another pharmaceutical client in Maryland, and we do a lot of uh work on on their sites there. A lot of those are more problem-solving, um, really uh not aesthetic design heavy projects, but again, for my personality, it's great. Um, it's working with kind of difficult users, not in the sense where they're they're not friendly or nice people, but they don't understand decision making and when it needs to happen. Um, so that can be kind of chaotic, chaotic during the design process. Um but but it's kind of dealing with that and part of the like people management and and how to learn how to format your meetings in a way um where you can prompt certain feedback or document things in a way that can try to prevent um late stage decisions or scope increase or more chaos that um you try to avoid as a project manager. I'm still learning how to do that well too, because I had a meeting this morning and it kind of spun off the rails too. So it happens all the time. It happens all the time. Um yeah, but but it's it's kind of it's kind of fun. But I I'd say most of my clients can can do that as well. And it's it's funny. I always think that I'm one of the least intelligent people in the room when I'm meeting with them, which is awesome because you know these people are lab scientists and healthcare professionals. Uh um, so it's it's fun to definitely know like the IQ of everyone you're working with is super high, but it still leads to these like chaotic meetings sometimes just because they don't know our profession either. So it kind of gives you confidence as well. It you're like, all right, something may fall off the rails, but that's okay. It's just part of they have to get to know us and the design process, just like we have to get to know um the work that they do so we can accommodate uh their needs.
SPEAKER_03100%. Do you just out of curiosity, did any of this interest that you're talking about now that you get to do with these healthcare or any kind of medical-based stuff, did that come in your mind at all when you were first starting your career? Like I could potentially do this.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely not. Um and in school, it's like I I never even thought of anything besides about that, designing like a monumental, like the next World Trade Center or something, you know, like something of unbelievable scale. Um yeah, it it it wasn't a disappointment at all. And for me, I thought it was it's great that I got to work on like different projects that aren't monumental in scale. Sure. Um, and so uh yeah, I essentially everywhere I've gone in my career path and my interests have been self-discovered. The only one I've kind of interjected into my own has been kind of the drone and the technology uh stuff. But I when I was hired at BHDP, I started on our workplace market. Um, so doing a lot of kind of commercial interior office renovations, and it was actually a great place to start because it's um it teaches you kind of the fundamentals and putting documents together, and it's not crazy complicated uh compared to some of the more technical science and technology projects or healthcare projects, so it was really a good base, and it's funny, I got into the science market simply because I had free time and I was helping somebody out in a project.
SPEAKER_03Really? Yeah, so it fell in your lap.
SPEAKER_01It fell in my lap, but uh and it stuck. And so that's how my whole career kind of kind of happened as well. So that's true. It came with it.
SPEAKER_03You just picked something, you went down the road.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Part of it, I'm I'm lucky to have a I think a curious personality. So I I don't get bored that easily. So it even um even you know, again, I we have five or six other markets, and I'd be more than happy to try try those as well. Um and and so yeah, take a long way to answer your question, though. I had absolutely no idea what type of design I'd be able to do.
SPEAKER_03This is what this is the type of architect you were gonna be. And also, I mean that goes back to our old point.
SPEAKER_01Also, one challenge I actually see with our industry is that, and I don't know if I'd be curious what your thoughts are on this. I'm hitting a point in my career where it's encouraged you take one of three paths project management, client-facing or business development, or technical architect. And so that's something that our firm, once you hit like my level, is they kind of encourage you to specialize in one. And I'm still resistant to doing that. Yeah, I know I don't want the design one. Um, I know I don't want the client leader, and I think now I'm like I'm listing more than I counted off, so you can edit that out too. But um, but again, like the the technical slash um project management for me is great. And so it's it's a challenge I'm gonna have to figure out, and I candidly don't know how I'm gonna do it, which isn't really like it's not scary. I think it's just kind of a a fun thing to work through as part of your career. Um, but how I can keep doing the role I like doing without kind of being pigeonholed into one way.
SPEAKER_03Sure. Well, I think that probably isn't just a design thing. I think there is a lot of moments and all kinds of um pursuits in whether you're in business or or or a design degree that's not architecture, but I don't think that's too dissimilar. I do think you hit the lulls. I like to call them that. Um, because you do kind of have this like identity crisis in a sense. Not saying that you're going full chaotic chaotic mode, but you kind of have a moment where you're like, well, I can do one of two things or one of three things. I don't really love either one, or do you make this huge shift and you shift something completely opposite, which I've seen actually more often, um, is like, okay, I've done this for 15 years, 20 years, whatever. Let's shift to something totally different. Um, and a couple people that I've even interviewed, there's been huge shifts, and they end up finding kind of the love either for the thing they shifted to or they find the love for the thing they came away from. Yeah. And they go back to it. Um, so it's kind of interesting. I do agree with you though. I do think we all kind of hit a moment where we're not that entry level trying to find our way anymore.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And now we have to kind of be the pseudo-expert of something.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, whether that be client to client relation, um, just being the face, like you said, or if it is a very technical, um, you know, I have my breadth of knowledge is so far advanced in this area that you kind of become the pseudo expert.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03I don't I don't really know how to get around that either. Because you especially for someone like you, you want to be able to say that I I can continue learning beyond XYZ.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where I think and it me this is where we're a little Little dissimilar is that I I do like to be the thought of being kind of a pseudo-expert of something. Um, however, never will you ever take anything of my personality away from the fact that I like to talk and I like to meet people. So even if I became a pseudo-expert of ADA code or or um wood wood structures for multifamily, even if I became that, there's always this facet to me that wants to be a part of a conversation. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So you can wear you can wear some of that client-facing business development aspect as well, right?
SPEAKER_03Just the maybe not the business development, but yeah, but I mean that's kind of inherent to personality, I think, too. So I think you end up, even if you put on one hat, you end up having multiple roles. It's just how your how your life kind of spins. I think you're right.
SPEAKER_01And I completely agree with your comment about hitting the stage in your career where you're you're eventually an expert. I heard someone told me a great quote, um, I don't know, maybe four or five years ago. And he told me, he's like, Yeah, someday you're gonna be in the room and you're gonna realize that like people are looking to you to be the expert. And there's been a few moments in my career where you're like, oh whoa, yeah. I'm that guy. Um and and it's it's cool, but it yeah, it you have to it kind of teaches you, um, you know, it's important not to get caught up and to remain modest when you realize that. Um but it it's been definitely kind of an eye-opener once you realize you've hit that spot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Well, and I think this is where we might be very similar here. Um, we hit that spot and there is a choice to be had, like you just said, you either humble yourself to the fact that you're there now. Um, and I think we are very similar that we do that. And I think the very next thought for me, be curious if you have the same, is okay, how can I teach the next one?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. For sure.
SPEAKER_03Um that's that doesn't, you know, that doesn't go away either. Like, I'm not the end of this legacy here or whatever.
SPEAKER_01True. Um, I definitely agree, and I I'm grateful to have that opportunity at my firm as well. Um, I I mentor or oversee uh somewhere between two to four, depending on the time, um, uh of more junior staff. Junior staff is it's more harsh sounding because they're they're great in their experience as well.
SPEAKER_02Sure.
SPEAKER_01I always think some of the terminology in our field can be like it sounds harsher than it actually is. Um but yes, I agree.
SPEAKER_03I okay, we'll end with this part. Do you think architecture, as it was ascribed when we first started in school, this is what this discipline was supposed to be? Or do you think now that you're in your career, architecture should be explained a different way or or defined a different way?
SPEAKER_01I have kind of a I think a mixed response. I would say a little bit of both. Um, the one thing that I think school misses out on the most is really my favorite part of the profession. And like, like kind of I touched on earlier was that just the problem-solving nature that evolves into kind of that aesthetic or space planning design that you do a lot of in school, that's really, at least in my experience, wasn't really taught a lot. And I think it's it's schools are doing themselves a favor um by not covering that, and maybe again that was just just my experience. Um but to me, again, that's that's one of the most rewarding things, and the data gathering and the problem solving and working with the clients before you're even drawing anything on paper. Um and and that's a lot of my day-to-day life where I'm living in that pre-concept world. Um and and I know in school, I think we'd only spend a week or two where you'd you'd print out your Google map of the site and you'd build your model and and then you'd kind of be done with it. Um but then I also do agree that like the outlook in school, um, where the concepting and presenting, I you know, I think school does a good job at getting you comfortable presenting to uh clients or um leader, you know, a lot of a lot of cases like I was also saying is is it's funny, like where I consider myself the dumbest person in the meeting, which is totally fine because I'm working with you know lab experts, medical professionals, and that can be intimidating in itself, presenting to people who are so highly qualified. Um and I do think school it it gets you comfortable with that because the professors are always beating you up after uh verbally, after you know, your reviews, and it kind of wears you down a little bit, but I think like in a good way where you you don't get distracted by nerves or fear, um, and you can just kind of focus on what really matters, which is either your design or whatever you're trying to accomplish in that meeting. So hopefully does that help answer? Um yeah. Okay, perfect.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. No, I I think that's that's part of the the charm and maybe the pros and cons of of architecture. Is that as advertised, it looks maybe a little more I don't want to say glamorous, because there are some very glamorous aspects to architecture or the beauty, I guess. But um, I think it's advertised to be one way. Um, but I think there's way, way, way more to it that you don't see until you're in your career.
SPEAKER_01Agree. And especially how it's portrayed, you know, like again, we said the stereotypical architect, how it's portrayed in media or um just anybody's image they have of an architect growing up. You have your pens in your pocket, and right.
SPEAKER_03It it definitely has a lot more to it. Thank you for coming on and sharing your journey into architecture and what it means to you now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, of course. And thanks. Thanks again for the opportunity and some fun questions.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. For those listening, it has been episode 14 of Define and Design Podcast. Please continue to listen to future episodes, and I'll see you on the next one.